Nuclear Weapons RP

[vesica]

So that I can weigh in, I believe it or not, am entirely indifferent to whether we ban nukes or not. Whether they are kept, or not (and this goes for all WMDS) it will not impact how I play this game, in that, I never intended on using them to begin with. From purely an RP IC perspective, they are a way to avoid conflict with a specific nation or nuclear power, or if in conflict with that nation, a way to say "You use yours, I'll use mine, so we both tactitly agree not to use them at all." In terms of me actually launching a nuke OOC, never had the intention, never will have the intention. So whether we keep them or not I'm good either way.

I agree with most parts of whats been said; nukes are notoriously difficult to build and make work, to say nothing of then maintaining what you've got and yes, keeping it a secret (you can't not really). If my RP stands, I do want clarification on the way it's fair for me to proceed, if it isn't, its a few hours of work I lose in a game; it sucks, but doesn't ruin my life or my ability to play this game.

[Dredd]

I personally believe they should be allowed given realistic RP to acquire them and a decent amount of ingame years to develop them. In the case someone has them and wishes to use them a compromise can always be reached in terms of conflict/escalation RP where if 1 side doesnt want to use them they can consent to a conventional resolution only, and in the end if no agreement can be reached they can always just not do the RP scenario which disagreements occur often even without WMDS. Chemicals/Bioweapons are already prevalent so I see no issue myself.

[hyraemous]

I’m guessing this flake of nuclear Armageddon fear and rumbling can be traced to the bomb dropped on Xsampa and partly because of me. I will say I developed IRBMs as a deterrent to nations like Beiteynu or nations that wanted to kick Kundrati deep in terms of a war. But I never intended for these missiles to have a nuclear, biological or chemical component.

Given such missile development has been advanced lately at least in Kundrati I thought I’d put in my two cents on why I did it initially. I am also under the assumption the current Kundrati WMD program is based off these rockets in the first place.

[Kubrick]

My opinion is that the janitors of this cursed place need to take a more hands on approach to the difficult case that is nuclear weaponry. In a way it has always been present within PT, sometimes this went the wrong way. Or frankly, most of the time this went the wrong way. Nonetheless, I do believe a blanket ban would also be the wrong way to go about this sensitive topic.

Over the past year both GreekIdiot and myself have roleplayed possessing nuclear weapon(s). Eventually this escalated into the nuclear destruction of Xsampa's quaint capital city. In a long forgotten past Vanuku, the nation where I played at the time, a "tactical nuke" was used on a large formation of Deltarian soldiers during a forgotten Majatran conflict. Both incidents sparked major international outrage, generated long series of subsequent posts, plenty of RP, new local and global legislation, etc. and were, in my opinion, tastefully and considerately done. Those involved consented, those wielding the weapons used restraint. Besides that I personally have used them in a few posts, mostly to establish Vanuku at various periods as a pariah state. Often also to threaten Luthori that Majatran colonisation would lead to nuclear devastation. A position I consider more than valid.

The point I am trying to make is that to the people that do enjoy this kind of geopolitical+military RP it holds a certain value. I will also gladly admit that there are those within the community that freely abuse this liberty and do not use them within the vision that I would like to see them used, that being a certain restraint and a basis of consent. 

I am also of the opinion that moderation/administration stating "enforcement is a lot of work" is a very poor excuse not to do something that could improve the current situation. I fully understand that keeping tabs and making tough calls is more work and can at times be unpleasant but I fail to see how it is any different than denying RP laws, cultural protocols, and so forth. Sometimes tasks need to be added to guarantee the proper workings of PT. I also do not think it is something ungovernable. Make it so that players have to present their own 'credentials', a plan, a potential partner, etc. as a part of their request. Like a sort of RP plan. These are just random thoughts, though.

As of right now I believe my current opinion is: No, nuclear weaponry should not be banned. Instead it should be an RP tool that players can request permission to use in RP. Usage of nuclear weaponry, covering someone else in a big boom, can only be done with consent of both RP'ing parties (and previous approval to use said technology) and the janitorial staff is free to intervene at any point in this process.

[jamescfm]

I agree with much of what Zanz has written here already. Though I am not opposed to role-play involving weapons of mass destruction in principle, my personal view is that almost all previous attempts to monitor or adjudicate role-play by Moderators have been beset by the same two problems.

The first problem is that the Moderation team generally do not have the time necessary to effectively keep track of the role-play happening in every country. As a result, the only time they get involved is when another player complains. As an example of this, consider the rules against plagiarism and the use of artificial intelligence. In my experience, these rules are only enforced when another player points out to Moderation that they are being violated. If the Moderation team was actively monitoring role-play in each country, it is likely they would be spotted much sooner.

The second problem is that assessing role-play is highly subjective. Every player has a different understanding of what makes role-play "good" and this contributes to a degree of diversity in terms of both style and subject of role-play within the community. When you add to this that there are strained relations between a number of long-term players, there is no doubt that there will be controversy when judgements have to be made. For that reason, I think it best to limit Moderator action that involves making subjective judgements wherever possible.

With all this in mind, I think it is just easier for everybody to say "no weapons of mass destruction" in the short term. If there is a genuine community desire to establish a storyline that involves such weapons, I would suggest planning this as a group in advance, and seeking explicit permission to have an exception to the rule.

[TheNick]

With my reply and personal opinion, I intend to close this feedback period. I chose to be the last in order to avoid any kind of "influence" and allow other players to speak their minds freely.

I am personally opposed to ban this opportunity of Role-Play, but I think that there should be some restrictions, conditions on it, to be put clearly on the game rules. I think there should a gradual approach from the player regarding this kind of RP, a gradual approach that reflects realism and that reflects the fact that there should be lenghty roleplay to claim development (and then mainteinance!) of nuclear weapons. Of course, someone rightfully pointed out that this last matter is too subjective, so my idea is to put written conditions under which nuclear roleplay might be considered valid.

About usage of said weapons in War RP, I am convinced of the fact that there needs to be consensus on both sides, and if a player involved in war RP is uncomfortable with it, the use of nukes should be ruled out, an area that Mods should enforce.

Back to the rules, thecurrent rules aren't clear on the matter and this is why we started this feedback thread in the first place. Now that we have a clearer view of this community's stated position on the matter, we'll start working to draft something (an update to the rules, most likely) that will be again subjected to community review - to ensure maximum partecipation and trasparency.

Thank you for submitting your voices and ideas to us!

[Autokrator]

I'm infavour of a soft ban on weapons of mass destruction, especially the nuclear kind. I'll explain what I mean by that. First and foremost though, sorry for weighing in so late. 

What is realistic and do we have admins with time to check up on it?
The Major problem I have with weapons like these is that it needs to be realistic and well RP'ed to create. I agree with that principle. But what is realistic? Wat is good RP surrounding it? Nations like North Korea also have nukes. I have no idea how good they are but they do have them. So it would require either a pre-set bunch of rules and a lot of admin oversight and lets be real, who has time for such oversight? Yes we can ignore the unrealistic RP, but is that fun? Shouldnt we as a community take some stances? This is why I think a bit of a ban is neccessary. 

It shatters or limits RP through powerplaying or world wide proliferation
Secondly, I believe that nuclear powers shatter RP if we arent carefull. Look at what happened between Luthori and Vanuku over Beiteynu. In discussions the only nuclear power, who got the nukes (Vanuku) from a nation that fell apart (Beiteynu) threatend another power (Luthori) with nuking its capital if it claimed the throne of Beiteynu. That is shattering RP. Its so much overpower that Luthori wouldnt be able to move. And what is the logical response to that? Two in my mind, one OOC, aka we ignore the threats as powerplaying and continue anyway, which opens another can of worms, or... we accept the reality and like all major economies and great powers build our own nukes. The problem that begets is the inability of small and medium powers like Modurdia, Seko or others to intervene or act. The nuclear powers can just project their power. That shatters all fun RP. I doubt that would be fun. 

Good thought out RP-story should be requirement
What do I think is good? Well thoughtout nuclear RP with a good reason with in a timeframe. The weapons must not be permanent and only to be used and considered during a specific RP timeline, like what happened with Beiteynu. That was fun, engaging and generally worked out well with great RP behind it to get to that point. Also it was thoroughly discussed with all parties involved. I think thats is important. 

How to make rules to fit in with what I said? I dont know, I think that is step 2.